Transcript Panel on Education


I would like to welcome everybody to our next session. We are very fortunate to have been the biggest panel with us today. They are going to be giving a group presentation so there is just one power point for our online audience, so you will have no problem following along on our slides. We have Roberta Null who all of you know by now is from Commonplace Design in California, Joy Potthoff from Bowling Green State University, Meg Teaford from OSU, and Sandie Sundermeier, a Universal Design advocate from Bowling Green, Ohio.  Each will be presenting and talking to us about Universal Design.  We're happy to have all of them with us today. They are going to be giving us a great presentation telling us how we can do a better job educating designers. I will turn it over to Roberta Null and she will begin.  

I wanted to mention the reason I listed Arlena Hines as my technical consultant in Lansing, Michigan, she helped me with the power point presentation.  This house was actually designed by Susan Mack who is an Occupational Therapist.  The house was built by Mac Kennedy near Columbus, Ohio. One nice feature is a no-step entrance.  I don’t know if you recognize this, it is the cover of a very old publication from the Center for Universal Design in Raleigh and I still like it because it shows all the different groups that have their needs met by universal design.  I am a little retarded because I still am using the first four principles of universal design; they are easier for me to remember. I think that a standard list is very important; you can look at any environment and can say, “Is it supportive? Is it easy to use and take care of?” “Is it adaptable? In other words, does it move up and down?”  “Is it accessible?”  So many people think that wheel chair accessibility is the only important characteristic of Universal Design. There are lots of other aspects of a accessability. The wheel chair users are actually a minority group in the disability community but they are an important one because if they can't get in, usually nobody can.  Accessibility is very important. The last principle is safety.  That becomes more important for an aging population.  When we teach interior design, we stress ease of use and the importance of easy care.  When I was growing up the epitome of good design was to have a Duncan Phyfe shining mahogany dining room set that needed to be dusted everyday. We were so delighted when Teak came in; that was wonderful.  So Universal Design should be very easy to use. This faucet has a single control that is easy to use. I've seen single handed faucets that are not easy to use.  Lever handles and a non-shiny surface prevent water spotting and promote ease of use. A lever faucet that you can control with a rolled up fist is a good way to test for Universal Design.  My favorite bad example, is the button faucet that you can't turn when your hands are dry and of course you can't turn them when your hands are wet.  

 Being adaptable serves a wide range of users whose needs change over time. This is one of the major differences between an aging population and the strictly disability population, because if you are a paraplegic today, you will be one tomorrow and the next day. If you're older and you can't see well today, better lighting and a different situation can help.  You have heard a relative say my dad can see or hear what he wants to hear, because he or she thinks that these needs stay the same. You really need to accommodate everyone as close as you can. Nothing is perfect.  I think you've seen this one all lot. It's the GE Universal Design Kitchen from the 90’s. You have pictures in your handout that are from GE.  For two years in a row Mary Joe Peterson did a kitchen for GE that has this nice sink cabinet that goes up and down the electronically that was seen in our videotape yesterday.  It was in a community exhibit and it cost $8,000 to move the entire kitchen to Pasadena from Andrus about 10 years ago and it’s just across town. The problem is, it is very expensive to have real products in an exhibit.  I was telling Meg I don't think she realizes the importance of having the kind of model facility they have at OSU. 
 
 For our gallery exhibit here, you see the things that can be moved.  In our exhibit at USC we had the sink that had been in storage for ten years. It's moving up and down it was a little shaky but its still a good illustration of adaptable design.  The nice thing about this adjustment is that it is electronic, so you can easily adjust it in a family when someone is tall and others short. If you’re a wheelchair user it is also accessible. No one wants to look at the ugly pipes, so the wood shield is attractive.  This view shows it lowered; it’s good to be able to sit at the sink.  There are differences of opinion about whether there should be an opening under the range top. I personally don’t think it’s safe.  A lot of Universal design is just good practice, like not having the handles of your frying pan sticking out into the work area.  The things like a filing system for dishes also is a safety feature.  I was thinking of my sister's house, where she has a big kitchen but her plates are all stacked in one cabinet and the soup bowls are on top of it.  You have to lift the whole stack to get anything off.  That is an example of bad accessibility.  I am showing you pictures of my sister's house in Whittier.  It has a no step entrance, which was put in 15 years ago after an earthquake. The original porch had two steps, when remodeled Mexican pavers form a slightly ramped entrance into the house.  Before he died, her husband was a wheelchair user, he would just wheel out the front door and sit down at the sidewalk to greet people. It is attractive and easy to maintain and it is wonderful for carrying in the groceries. The picture of the entrance is the same, it’s just a different view but you can see how it relates to the front entrance. Its important to think about how to make houses accessible.  It’s difficult but essential to create no step entrances, but Eleanor has some good ideas to make it an easier process.  She says that a no step entrance does not always have to be in the front of the house.  

The Murphy bed is a good example of universal design.   I reserved a room many years ago for Ron Mace who was going to speak at a meeting in Atlantic City.  He was ill so Leslie Young took Ron’s place on the program. She asked if I wanted to see an accessible room?  We went to Ron’s room and that's the first time I saw a Murphy bed in a hotel room. It's an ideal solution for accessibility.  This picture shows a Murphy bed in a hotel suite in San Francisco. It's just a part of the woodwork when it’s closed. This is what it's like when it is open.  It's a regular bed that isn't like the sofa beds they frequently have in hotel rooms that are uncomfortable and unsanitary.  Here is a home elevator, and of course, the roll in shower. This bathroom is in a house in Minneapolis.   Their son has a disability and the bathroom was designed with a built in bench.  He can slide into the shower and pull down the shower seat to sit on, but other people want to stand in the shower they can just lift the seat up.  In advertisements for the comfort height toilet, Kohler, shows the toilet next to a regular chair. So you don't say is a handicap toilet it's a comfort height so who wouldn't want to have that. This next picture is my favorite bathtub they do such poor advertising you wouldn't even know that they exist.  Arjo makes bathtubs for nursing homes, but this is a residential model.  This is what it looks like open. It's easy to access and it doesn't take a lot of water to get up to your waist.  This is what it looks like closed. It's like a roll top desk, and it fits in the space for a regular bathtub, except it’s higher. I think it's about a thousand dollars. Have you ever priced whirlpool tubs?  They are very slippery and you can't get in and out of them.  This Arjo tub has whirlpool jets and a shower. When my sister renovates her house she is going to get one of these.  The entrance to her house is accessible but the rest still has problems.  The Bocci mirrors are from a display in the gallery that they did for our gallery and they are flexible and magnifying.  They are wonderful because they go up and down and some are on arms that swing out, too.  Then the Honeywell thermostat which is easy to use and has large easy to see numbers.  There used to be only one company that made a front loading washer and dryer.  You know who does it now, everybody.  Including one that it can accommodate five loads of laundry.  This is a combination washer and dryer with controls in the front.  Small combination washers and dryers were first introduced for RV’s.  I had a friend that had one about 40 years ago, that was a Westinghouse, and it weighed about two tons. She loved it. She put her dirty clothes in, in the morning and when she got home she had dry, clean clothes.  Safety is very important.  Furniture manufacturers for commercial furniture do really good universal design.  It’s good business and there’s research evidence that shows Universal Design as related to productivity.  They were the first ones to do work stations that go up and down and chairs that have adjustable arms.  Obesity is one of the disabilities that people don’t talk about and is becoming an increasing problem.  To have chairs that won't collapse and chairs that you can get into and things like that is something we all need to be concerned about.  We need to be concerned about designing environments for all people. There was one hotel chain that decided they were going to do a resort for fat people.  Everything was larger including all furniture, such as beds and chairs.  I thought, who's going to go? It's just like elderly. If you are marketing to the elderly population, forget it because no one sees themselves as elderly. If you’re fat, you know your fat. You don't want somebody telling you they designed specifically for you because you are fat. This room has a nice feature that is just an extension of the chair rail on that back wall. It provides good support and yet doesn't stand out. This is an important factor in designing for an older population. None of us like to stand out. When I went into a restaurant that had a chair lift to go up to the second floor because everything was up there.  Even though I am always looking for the elevator because I have mobility problems. I would not choose to get on the chair lift because I don't think they're very safe. Another thing about Universal Design is that it has to look good; it has to be attractive.   Having the front controls on a range is essential for safety. 
This actually -- this is a retirement community outside of Perdue. They did some things with universal design. One of my friends that was going to move in said we're really concerned because the controls are behind the stove and it's going to cost $800 more to choose ones that have the controls in the front. I just called the guy that was in charge and you can do so much more with voice mail. I said that is really dangerous and you've got an older population and if somebody gets burned, you're going to have some problems. My friend called next week and said now that you've been warned, if anybody is burned, York libel. He know what? 500 ranges were changed. Somebody had just not thought about it. How many times do you see the microwave above the range? It's too high and it's not safe. And it's pretty. Nobody ever questions it, but it's really not say. Okay? I don't know how many of these they've sold but it's an interesting concept. It really is soft. And the decorative grab bars. And 90 year-old that says I don't need grab bars ... kind of interesting shower they have in the senior facility. This grab bar cost $19. The pictures from number three, it's like Uncle and th
catalog, it's great. So you don't have to spend a lot of money but they should look good and they should be placed where they work best for you. Or you can do general things that you have, but they should be attractive. This is a wonderful kitchen that was designed for a wheelchair user in Southern California. She said she's got all these pull out and they really are great. You can get them -- she has two since in the kitchen, when goes up and down and one is that a lower level. And lots of sinks. This is one of the things if you're trying to do universal design inexpensively, just have a variety of levels and whatever works. And the standard cabinets are 36 inches high. But a table height is 32, and it works for the wheelchair users and also works were sitting in a regular chair and having a place to sit down in the kitchen. Okay. 

This is granite counter tops and a place where she could just wheel in and the rest of the seating area is around so she could have guessed their answer from there and things like that. It was really handy. Well, you recognize these from downstairs. These done by students from Lansing Community college. As that it? These are from the exhibit. There's our sink. You recognize the other thing. We had these on loan from Ohio state. They actually sent us a CD and Andres paid to have them mounted. We are ready for our next one. And I'm sure I talked too long. So joy, I'll have to talk fast. [ Laughing ] 

Colleague and friend. She has been working since 1999 with the interior design students as a consultant on their projects. I'd like to introduce our three students who are here. I have just come Rouch, Melanie Cribs and they are going to interact and talk to Sandy about some of the issues. What I would like to say from the very beginning, and I think this is an important thing that gets left out is that anyone who comes from an interior design program in the last decade has been trained in accessible and universal design. That is a given. They don't graduate without having that training. National certification exam I sat at the exam a few years ago, you will fail in its if we don't make the plans accessible to code and beyond. He will not receive the certification. In many ways I think interior designers are specifically trained in this area. Our discipline tends to work one on one with the client. Saw that fits very well into this issue of making things accessible because you are with a client, talk to the client and see the issues and a corresponding me designed the issues to meet their needs. With interior design, yes, we have a great aesthetic going. Everything we do should look marvelous. Also has to be very safe and easy to maintain. That is a given and that is how our students are trained. With that said, what we're going to be looking at is weak as it says here I became very aware early on that I didn't understand all the issues surrounding accessibility and a met Sandy through a job you're doing with learning disability homes and she has MS. At that time we could walk. We have a lab that I am ashamed to say I not accessible. When you first joined us you could walk. The last time you came which was just before Christmas we had to get the police department to carry her down into the lab that they were somewhat gracious about. And Sandy does work with our students. They can e-mail her with questions and we can go to the next slide. 

This basically says what I've been talking about. So we can go ... Two of the students here have posters and Kate Burnham also has a poster that we did for Roberta's exhibit in L.A. These posters originated with Sandy's looking at the environment and taking photographs of what she found in the environment and working with the students. Do you want to take over from here? 

The things that I work with on the students are public facilities and there are places that are meant for everyone to use. It's not an individual's home or private restaurant. These are places that it's a given everyone should be able to get into. One of the ones we looked at work retail stores. I'm sure a lot of you will find it hard to give through retail stores. It's almost impossible to get through. It's more like a maze. They feel like I am a mouse in a maze and you can't find your way out. Can't see over the racks. People can't see you, but it's only common sense to how they a racks are a part so people can get through, not just for disabled people, but for everybody. A lot of these things you see, I know a store tries to get as much inventory as they can. Another thing with retail stores that we commented about is that a lot of times they have wheelchairs' that you can't use, they also have strollers, especially in a mall and where they put the wheel chairs and the strugglers in the very middle of the mall. Now, that's pretty much impossible if you can't walk and even to get this stroller if you have a small child and you're trying to manage everything I don't know why we can't put them at the major entrance of the mall so you park and you go in and it's right there. Elevators are usually hidden in the back corner of the retail store. They don't have good signs and if you're not to the point where you need a wheelchair you don't need all the extra exercise of trying to find the elevators of you can go upstairs. Put themselves in this seat of the disabled community but they don't test it out before they implement. This is a picture of the poster that is outside that you can look at later. This picture is taken from a local store in our area and what we thought could be done to make it more accessible. The next topic that we kind of dull with work restaurant still-rest rooms. Everybody has to use the rest rooms. The disabled community has to use rest rooms more than others. They say they are handicapped accessible of the toilet is not raised. You don't have grab bars. One part of it may be accessible, maybe the door is light enough to get in, but that's it. That's a real problem if you have a hard time getting up or down. Did we missed the poster on the restroom? I'm sorry. I went out of order. Another thing that's in common areas, public places are parking and handicapped parking, a sensibility. I would say 90 percent of the time handicap parking is not in a convenient location. It might be put into it looks good, say hearsay building and have an office over to the left it visually looks pretty, but where you have to park and where the curb cut is in we're the door is could be a half mile down the other end of the building which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to those who need to use those ramps or handicap parking spots to get into the building. It's out there, too, that shows that a lot of times when you're crossing the street there's a curb cut one place and go across the street and there's not one of the other side of the street. 

There's a curb cut on this side but not on the other side. 

And then you get on the other side and say hey, where do I go from here? The talk about safety and your out in the middle of traffic trying to find a curb cut. That can be a real safety issue. Rest rooms, they say they are handicapped accessible they usually are not completely handicapped accessible. It's pretty minor tweaks and changes you can make that would get them to the point where they would be fully accessible. I might get in the restroom, I might be able to wash my hands can't reach the paper towels or the soap. If they would just move it down if someone would actually sit there when they're putting things in, it's just common sense to people who have a hard time using those facilities. You don't want to have to ask for help if you don't need to. This is another poster. This showed a handicap a sensible restroom that was in a medical facility that was an Ohio that was not really very accessible. This opened the eyes to the girls more than anything because they said now they go in rest rooms and they look around and say gee, Sandi wouldn't be able to reach the water here. Really simple changes. So I will turn it over to Jessica now. 

I'm sure design is so into this, but we have made national competition run through the American Society of Interior designers, and this last year, 2006, we get the competition in the fall was to design a spot specifically for people with MS, and there was a living area for the people who ran the spine which also had to be accessible because one of the relatives of the people running the Spock also had a mess. And all three of you worked on this along with Sandy and we did visits to a spa and it had some constraints because it was a competition so they were making it hard for us to come up with a good design. It had to be beautiful and have a good feeling to it. And Jessica, and you will see another one by Lauren Klein did some very nice projects. Jessica, do you want to talk about it a little bit? We will put you on the spot, kiddo. 

Basically, it's pretty straightforward. The main idea of making it accessible is just to open it up, not put some it was in make sure in this area here their was plenty of a turnaround space and it was easily accessible to get to the back entrance in case of emergencies. Another thing I was excited about was being able to add more than what was required in this entrance here was to be able to provide more storage for the couple that was living in the apartment. Another thing that I had found was it's called a pale hilo for the pulled system it's actually a mobile system where you can put people into the pool. Another thing I had found was a very small pool that has a wave system so it feels like you are in Olympic sized. That way it's saved on space, gave us a lot more room to accommodate more people up into the yoga space. And that kind of stuff. Here, we just have two of the elevations. This one is the rest room wall with lockers and storage and the parole under it sinks. The one up on the top is the front reception area. It just has some display area underneath that would be accessible and then there's the isometric of all the storage that's included on the back side. And just some of the things we put in such as the hydraulic lift massage tables. This is the residential area. It has some of the different furniture pieces. The kitchen and the bedroom and at all has the 9-inch [ indiscernible ] for wheelchair accessibility. Now, we just have the electrical plan here which is pretty straightforward emergency exit and things like that and the materials. We went with neutral based colors, very soothing, and recycled glass tiles. I'll turn it back over to join. 

As interior designers we designed with thinking about accessibility about universal design will think about sustainable design. We put it together and make it very beautiful and if you want to keep going I think the last is the lighting plan because we did lighting and we put all the materials together we want this to be a wonderful aesthetic experience, we want the client to feel comfortable and happy in the environment that is very crucial. The got a whole lot of components going on. We've got the technicals and materials we make sure are safe. Everything is healthy and welfare of the client that is ethics for ASID. Our training for interior designers brings this all together. [ Laughing ] If you do want something designed to be accessible I strongly recommend you find an interior designer that will have the knowledge base and background and they will help you work through your issues. I think what we are seeing is that you need to work with your client. This is not abstract. Go to a drawing board and say I want to design entry way. It go to the drawing board is say you want to design an entryway and you talk to someone who is going to be using that entryway and look at all the difficulties they have an design is correspondingly and make it beautiful and safe and as maintenance free as we can. We had this really wonderful dynamic going for a number of years. Sandy is quite amazing. She writes my horse. [ Laughing ] She is an equestrian, Jessica is an equestrian and I am, too. 

I think one of the main things, when a look at the ADA code, it's about 2 million pages long. His ideas and no one reads the whole thing. [ Laughing ] Other and it architects in the room? It seems like -- if they read the whole thing, it really doesn't tell you how is the practical things. They may say yes, you have to have parking spaces this wide and this long, but if I park in handicap spaces and it's only an incline I'm trying to get out, I'm having trouble walking down there or you have trouble rolling, it doesn't make it safe at all. That kind of stuff -- 

[ indiscernible ] the access aisles need to be. We adhere to it strictly. 

You do have to remember there is a minimum, it's like a 32-inch, 34-inch door opening. 

The turn rate isn't that [ indiscernible ] 

Yes. We've got a little plug. We've got into business together and we do consulting work for people that want to remain in their homes within it are very young or very old. We offer our services, we did it together because she has the understanding and I have the design background and we help people modify their homes as best they can to be able to stay in them. We also take the other part of it -- can I share a personal thing? Sandy is amazing. She shouldn't be here this morning, she's been sick. And I've been a very poor care giver for the past 16 hours. When you're designing for disability, the care giver has to be part of the equation. I think we've wanted to throw that chair and are accessible hotel room out of the room because there wasn't enough space to get the scooter. I had to spooked by the then to be able to pull you up and. 

Over. You have to think of the care giver as part of this dimension. I'm just curious, if I may, Meg, some of the things that you had difficulty with? 

One thing because I started first with an architectural background and now am a wheelchair user is that the guidelines and the codes don't change as quickly as technology. For a wheelchair user, they recommend lowered tables and lowered sinks, but as a power wheelchair user I cannot use any of those things. And technology is a wonderful thing, but in this case it's working against me. Also, parking spots, I have a ramp to van. When you design accessible parking, my ramp is on the right-hand side and needs an extra wide accessible birth that can't always be found, either the accessible striped area is on the driver's side or it's much narrower than what accommodates a van. The idea of having minimums and thinking about things from a one disability dimension is very antiquated. That's one of my ... 

Next? 

Per our online users, I'm Meg and I teach at Ohio State and I'm going to talk to you a little bit today about continuing his education thing about educating both health-care students primarily occupational and physical therapists and we have one of our occupational therapy students here today and interior design students we team teach together. If we can show some of these slides. I think you have my -- I don't need to show my comments. What I'm trying to do is talk to you particularly about a class that we teach aren't universal design and home modifications, but after what Sandy talked about a may touch on a little bit as well. What we found out is that our interior design students are well-educated about universal design. They know and they know it should be a static and they know it should be attractive and they've got all that down. Our occupational therapy students, particularly, are very good in a rehab and thinking about getting people home from the hospital but neither one of them quite sees the whole picture. So that's just my point. That the students coming from the health care setting are often looking at this rehab model and thinking how do we get this person of from the hospital? How can we get them into that house? They are often thinking about adaptive equipment. They are reluctant to make much in the wake of changes that will be permanent to the whole house because they may be expensive and because they may be only temporary. The interior design students who know what's about how to make a house attractive haven't the foggiest notion, frankly, about how your vision changes as you age or how you lose some of your hearing and we can do some things to make an environment more caring friendly. They are often not to tune in to just mobility issues in general. So they bring their part to it, but they can't learn from the others as well. I think I'm sort of saying this may be a little bit ahead of myself. Often people are seeing it as part of the Americans with disabilities Act, but they are not seeing a little broader picture and they are not seeing it as life span development and I am a gerontologist but I know that there are children living in these environments, too, and they have a lot in common with older adults. They are often shorter and can't reach things, high storage in number of things. That's another issue that our students haven't really picked up on. They're not looking at this to the whole life span. So in the spring we teach this class called universal design and home modifications, real easy title. We start out and this tells you the basics and then we will get into the details. Can we go back a second? We start them out with some case studies on the kitchen and bathroom. They are working together, occupational therapy sessions are working with interior design students. We put them in teams. Then we do some field trips to see actual examples, we went out to visit her parents' house. Number of changes last summer so Terry's mother could come home rain nursing home. So the students back to see what was going on in a real house. The students helped us conduct community workshops on universal design and home modifications and finally, the students go out into the community they get approval to do all this and do home assessments primarily for older persons, but not entirely. Again, they are in teams of an interior designer and an occupational therapist working together. The report backed up to us, their findings. We make some suggestions, they go back and we write them and eventually send a report to the homeowners. So I just talked a little bit here about how we visited Terry Stanley's home one that had been renovated last summer and how important that was and Terry's father was there as well as Terry and for very helpful in terms of talking with the students. We asked the contractor, Dave Foxx remodeling here in Columbus to come out as well. Great interchange, very helpful for the students. The second the field trip some of you did yesterday to the farm science review is for our online people it's a site about 20 miles from Columbus and we have two slights to show you a little bit about what it looks like. It had a model kitchen, it had a model bathroom and it has an educational display about universal design. This is the kitchen. This kitchen was built for us last summer by Lowe's home improvement stores. Then we pulled together this so-called family of people and Los came and did a photo shoot and they cover story in their creative ideas magazine, so I took this picture treacly from that article. This shows the kitchen that is out there that can be viewed by a number of people. Very, very helpful. Here is the bathroom which isn't there now. We're getting a larger bathroom that will have more features. Dave Fox is building this, Los is pay ating for ID and those of you that went out yesterday know it's just a hole right now. Hopefully it will be better looking than this. Let me say what's so great about having both a kitchen and bathroom. When I'm took out the Occupational there the second year students, they said to me "we know all about universal design, we don't need to know anything more." [ Laughing ] They did not want -- in another class where I wanted them to do some work on universal design nobody signed up for it. Can you imagine? I'm teaching about universal design, no one signed up. I figured forget this. When we went out there, they said we had no idea. Just walking through that environment and pulling out the drawers in the kitchen obviously, and looking at the teachers and seeing how they could move around the space made such a difference, it was just incredible. The came away with a much better understanding of what universal design could really do them they had gotten in the textbooks and other earlier class's. I think today he we're talking about educating professionals. This is why it's so important that they really have this kind of environment to look at. 

[ Question from Audience ] I was thinking as I've been through this two days, when Mack of the things that seems to be -- one of the groups that seems to be missing among all of us who are interested in design, either from an interior designer architecture standpoint are working with government agencies and promoting these things, is the Department of communications such as the Department of Communications at Ohio state. If you want the message to get out, there are very articulate ways of packaging messages. We know, because we get this every day from the politicians they know how to use it. Why don't we include with your group of people who are going out to these homes some one from the communications department or include students from that area and other disciplines on campus so that we get their ideas. I find when I worked on projects, the more people I have working with me from a variety of backgrounds, people of would never imagine working with, the more intelligent the solution and it always improves on whatever my thoughts were. I always look at it and think how lacking I was before I started the project. That's one thing. I also want to plug one thing. I have IT father-in-law in Newark -- not a thought on law and uncle in law, who fought the Battle of the Bulge who am going to see tomorrow and a family reunion and I want to convince him have this group may become over, he's an engineer retired from Owens Corning. He will not change his house. [ Laughing ] His by himself in a wheelchair. I want to do something to get that to happen. He reads The "Wall Street Journal" and New York times every day and he would be an excellent candidate for this sort of thing. 

Suggestion. The-thank you so much. That's a great suggestion. 

I think the importance of the team is an emphasis here. One of the problems in academia is no one talks to anybody else. That Meg is a gerontologist and works with Suzie will say housing interior design home economist is one of the reasons that they are very successful and they really are. And so many times -- unfortunately, it's a part of some disciplines that are taught they are the only ones that know anything. If you think that, you're not going to work on a team because everybody has to come equally to the team. I think this is one of the reasons why they are so successful in what they've done. That kitchen is unique that we saw yesterday. You don't see another one anyplace else in the United States. That's one of the reasons you see this GE kitchen that's 10 years old. 

[ Question from Audience ] 

Another audience member is saying there's a future home in Baltimore, Maryland which is another example. It's an just great. The students and I pick up on what [ indiscernible ] about the communication. Because one of the things we're giving our students an opportunity to do is to go to these community workshops and talk with the public about universal design. Opportunity to practice getting up and speaking publicly and organizing their thoughts. We give them a lot of guidance because be want this to be pretty standardized. They are out meaning the public. They're hoping to communicate information. I think that's very exciting. And then this is really our next to last slide, but students in teams it's so important. They learn a lot from each other. We send them out in twos. One is for safety. We somewhat know about the homes they are going to. They just feed off of each other. They see different things in the home and learning from each other. They are learning more from each other than they learned from us -- we will at least from me. I think that's just tremendously important. The other great thing is that one person can be measuring, they bring tape measures, light meters. One person can be doing those things while other people -- while the other person is answering the home owners questions and that's one of the things that we've talked about is that we send these recommendations out, and when we thought up around six, seven months later to find out what people did. Guess what? Not too much has been done, I'm sorry to say. We think that is in part because -- lost audio -- the reason they sign up for the home modification is the help the students. They had no interest in doing anything to their homes. They just like students and they like Ohio State and want to be helpful. That doesn't mean it isn't a teachable moment. They didn't have in mind redoing their homes. We're trying to, again, the things people to are the obvious and simple to do. Most of them pick up the scatter rugs and sometimes they will put in some whatever door handles, some things get done but not as many as we would like to see it done. So I guess here are my conclusions. Obviously these students from having but we think is a hands on experience learn more about universal design and are out there in the community. They also know before about another discipline or disciplines and I think that is tremendously important. Unfortunately, as Roberta is saying a lot of our education is done pretty silo style and these students, they don't know each other. There on the same campus but they could be anywhere, frankly. Their opportunities to encounter each other are pretty limited. We think for that reason alone, they understand better how they could work together. We really enjoy this group of students, we enjoy the class. We only grade it SU and because we don't think we don't need to do a whole lot more than adding grades on a point we think the students learn. Maybe there's some people, and who want to ask questions are people here as well. 

My name is Carla, I live in Columbus. Ms.Teefor brought her class to my house and I just want to confirm where you're saying. They came back and took some pictures where their web page. They were charming and they're doing exactly what is said feeding off of each other it was fun to watch them. I was in press with the energy and the fact that they really seemed to beat interlink that and I appreciate that you brought them to the house. 

I will handle but the mike. I will mention that Carla built a two family house sell the campus and was very gracious to allow us to come and visit. 

My name is Bob and I teach architecture students in Toronto Ontario. I went to the Senate yesterday to see the model kitchen. Universal design in Canada has not developed and I'm wondering if you have any suggestions for those of the house who live in the parts of the world who don't have model kitchens are good examples to visit or other suggestions it might have how we can expose of her students to that type of design? 

I'm sure other people might have suggestions. I will just mention that AARP has a website that you can have a virtual tour. I think they have six or eight houses. You click on each house and you click on the room and there's sort of a Web cam that takes you around so you can see the room at a 36-degree angle -- 360 degrees. Excuse me. [ Laughing ] So that's very good. Where are wonderful resources from the universal design Center at North Carolina State University. A lot of stuff that is a PDF file that you can download. 

I think one of the things that you might check on is downstairs in the exhibit the wonderful online curriculum that was designed by Betty Jo White at Kansas State University, it's just now protected and the Web sites are listed on the poster. This is -- they are geared for secondary school students, so you can use them and I think that makes them very effective for community groups to. Anytime you can get hands-on things. One of the things -- Valerie was talking yesterday about having students do research and one of the things we did in Kumamoto, they sent committee people out with Polaroid cameras to photograph different things in the community whether they were accessible or not and students love to do something like that in committee people. It doesn't take a Ph.D. to take your camera out and take pictures of things you think would look good and be easy to use. Anytime you could involve students in things and and all committee people like Meg, the students talking to each other there really learned that way. But check out the curriculum. 

[ Question from Audience ] 

It's down in the lobby in the gallery. There are pictures all the way around. This is the web site. 

I'm sorry for our online people we're working around the room with the mike. Is another question. 

I'm Steve Hansen from maximum independent living in Cleveland. Every source in many communities that have developed accessible housing. We give it towards all the time. People can see how accessible housing. Is not as convenient because we have to disrupt our tenants, but most communities do have accessible housing and that's a way to teach people about. 

Yes. I'd think that's a tremendously important that Carla and some other people, Terry's family have opened their homes up so that the students get -- and the public and general. Another woman home we've worked with invited a local television station in recently to take a look around which was great. Of course, it was only a few seconds here and there, but still, it was tremendously important. Do we have some questions on line? All right. Any other things that we want to ask here before we take a break? Okay. If not, for going to be around ... what does it say? 

What is the process to correct and ADA complain -- complaint bathroom which is not accessible. Example, a toilet roll is above the grab bar. 

Well Joy, you haven't answered any questions. 

I have seen this in commercial installations. You do have to make sure your wheelchair doesn't knock it over. You can have the toilet paper on a span and a lot of people are selling those because walls with our gypsum board don't hold a toilet -- the container for the toilet paper it comes off the wall. I would suggest as long as you are not going to bump into it, that you have a stand the toilet paper and you can put it wherever you find it convenient. That would be my solution quick off the top of my head. I own a Subaru and there's a chat room where everyone complains about what's wrong with the car. Is there a chat and where in our organization for ability, disability where you can talk about the problems you're having with the environment? This is just Jessica. 

I know they have one for Barbara my Alza and multiple sclerosis and other mental disorders. I'm not sure they have them for people with other disabilities, that's one I know offers a lot of different chat rooms where people with different disabilities and different diseases. Pro health.com. 

I am -- there's a link to the website for the national home modifications resource center or something like that. I found that very often because people who throw out their design problems and other people suggest solutions. I find it very interesting. I'm also curious. I read about your program and I believe it was the "journal of gerontology," has anybody approached you try to replicate what you are doing in other communities because I'm very interested in doing so. Thank-you. 

Asking the blessed the question is from one of our online people what can you do if this is commercial situation, so it's public? 

I think it still might work. You've got the target paper above the grab bar. Okay. [ Laughing ] I have to tell you this morning I went to the bathroom because I always get nervous, the toilet paper dispenser which was a huge circle about 16 inches in diameter was broken. [ Laughing ] And came off the wall and hit me on the head. [ Laughing ] , and someone is trying to tell me something here. It was above the grab bar. Again, I think people want lots of Target paper. I think you really have to sit in the situation, decide where it's the most comfortable place. I'm going to get this over to my experts, Sandra. 

She's probably wanting to know who do ask to have it changed? Is there somebody you can turn people into if they don't -- 

I'd think you'd do need to go to whoever owns the building or the maintenance people. Initially maintenance people to try to be very helpful because they have to clean things up. 

A suggestion would be to try with the owner of the building and if not, there's got to be a local access group that you can go to. I think the owner should have at least an attempt to accommodate you and sometimes they will. 

Often it's just an error that haven't read the code properly or the placement properly or they didn't think it would matter if it was above or below the grab bar. It's just a suggestion to talk to somebody and they were probably change it because they didn't think about doing it right. 

I just wanted to close this out because our session I know is over and to thank our speakers, Roberta of course it's wonderful to have you, and we really enjoyed seeing your slides and talking about them Joy and thank you so much and thanks Joy's to students as well for being part of this session. I think it's been great. I think we've heard from almost everyone in the room which is great and I appreciate this very much. So